What's the difference between the BS programming language and PIC's Language?

Community General Discussions
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I've been programming a BASIC Stamp II, and so-far-so-good. However, one of the main things that has bothered me about it is its cost. I couldn't afford to build all my robots with a BS II.

I was wondering, as this is one of my biggest concerns, what's the difference between the BASIC Stamp programming Language and the PIC language? This may seem like a dumb question, but keep in mind that I'm pretty new to all this.

Seeing that there's a PIC chip inside the BS II, I'm hoping that there's no difference.

The only BS programing is the editor for the BS II. Can I switch to PIC easily without learning another language?

And please, just answer the question without a barrage of insults towards the BS Family. I know where many of you stand in this.

Thank you for your help. One day I might be good at this kind of thing. :)

Isn't there 1 free editor that you can use for all PICs? I got the "Serial PIC Programmer". How does the programming in this editor differ from that of the BS editor?

Krumlink mentioned PICBASIC. Is that compatible with the axe023, PICAXE 28-X1, and pretty much all the "standard" PICS?

Can I convert Frits's beginners tutorial code into Swordfish Basic?

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It is all relative to what
It is all relative to what you want to use. The bag o shi oh sorry BS2 is common to use BASIC programming language, while PICS can use PICBASIC, assembler, C and many others. If you are using the BS2 I would use BASIC as it is optomized to use it.

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The "PIC Language"

The native PIC language is RISC assembler. Almost all PIC data sheets contain the full instruction set. Microchip publish a full Intergrated Develpment Environment (IDE) for it and it’s COMPLETELY FREE! You can step through your code on-screen without promming it into the PIC and there are only 31 (depending on the PIC) instructions to learn. Given that PICs are also COMPLETELY FREE (engineering samples) your only expenditure would be a programmer. You can build one (eg JDM) for about $10 and the software to drive it is also COMPLETELY FREE.

So, there you go. No fancy boards, no fancy bootloaders, the whole thing’s free (except the programmer). All you have to do is learn 31 little instructions.

I MUST MUST MUST Finish this.

Actually, apart from the language, the fundamental difference between a PIC and most other pic-based solutions is the bootloader. (Can anyone clarify if BS has a bootloader?) The raw PIC is programmed by a pair of special programming pins. In the case of “other” PIC-based controllers, these pins are used in the factory to program a small piece of code called a bootloader. Thereafter, teh user doesn’t have to use the programming pins because your program is pushed into the PIC’s serial port (a different pair of pins) THROUGH the running bootloader program (hence, it’s also sometimes called “through programming”).

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You can go through a lot of
You can go through a lot of headaches that way. You can use C (A very powerful programming language), a 18F series chip which is optomized for C, and a PICkit 2 programmer. JDM’s just plain don’t work and are an ancient peice of equipment. You can purchase the PICkit2 from microchip and it comes with a free 16F690 (Dont quote me on the chip).

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You then can use MPLAB IDE

You then can use MPLAB IDE which you can use for assembly language or C. Below is a screen shot of MPLAB. There are tools of all sorts to use with it. http://lne.byexamples.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/mplab.png

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AVRs for a little speed and Basic too.

Another microcontroller to consider would be the AVRs, which have quite a few users supporting them in various forums, such as http://avrfreaks.net

There is a free Basic compiler in BASCOM that has been said to be a good next step from Basic Stamp, having some similarities but with extensions in functionality.

And AVRs actually have been optimized for C from the very beginning, if you’d like to try an advanced programming language at some point.

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Basic Stamps boot
Basic Stamps use an interpreted Basic, with serial loaded "tokens" (from your program) into them which is interpretted by the resident firmware, a type of bootloader, from best I can tell or have read.

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Mostly true

Much of this is correct, but it is what gave me the low level understanding which is absent from high level entry points. I stnad by my assertion from my earliest days that had I spent the money on a programmer, then subsequently learned what a programmer does, I would have felt like it had been a shocking waste of money. A programmer is such a fundamental component of a PIC project that if you can’t build and understand one, well… low level PIC isn’t for you.

My JDM never gave me single hint of trouble. I abandoned it after 6 affectionate years for two reasons: the tolerance of the /MCLR input changed on some very modern PICs and the Vpp was no longer suitable and secondly, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to buy a PC with a standard RS-232 port. I now have a PICkit2 and it did come with a free 12F629 on a very nice development PCB. BUT, it cost me $50.

The C compiler isn’t cheap, either and if you’re going to program low level code in C (a language which I would venture most C programmers don’t actually know as their experience tends to be that of stringing lots of library functions together) then you may as well do it in RISC and be super-efficient.

The other advantage of the PICkit is that you prom the PIC directly from the Microchip development environment: you don’t need to load your compiled code into an external prommer program.

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Another thing
Of course, how many bots would you intend to have on the go at a time? I’m hard pressed to keep one development project alive. I’d say if you had one or two BS’s and you plugged them into whichever your hot projects were that would probably be OKay!!

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And that is why MPLAB
And that is why MPLAB prevails. It is all in one. If you looked around a bit you would find the free C compiler, which is limited to a certain degree but that doesnt matter.

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100 dollars for 2 basic
100 dollars for 2 basic stamps. 100 dollars (plus or minus a dollar or two) for 50 18F1320’s

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I have never used PICBasic.
I have never used PICBasic. Swordfish basic works in modules and is free. Try that.

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Comparing apples to apples, MCU style

Checking from Microchips site, the current price for the 18F1320 in PDIP package appears to be $2.95 for low quantities to $2.81 for 100+

Additionally, there is a needed crystal/oscillator/resonator to get the device to work. Resonators are cheap, found a 40 MHz one for 0.64 from Digikey.

And a voltage regulator to supply the chip. An LM2937ET-5.0 is $2.06 in low quantities at Digikey.

And headers to access the signals easily. A 40 pin strip is $2.43.

And a serial level translator chip, to get TTL level serial to RS-232 levels. A MAX233CPP+G36 costs $7.45 in low quantities and doesn’t require external caps.

And there are caps needed for the voltage regulator, as well as a decoupling cap or 2 for good measure. Maybe another $1.

And a PCB to put it all on. Places like ExpressPCB and other sometimes have specials for 3 boards for $99. You could even panelize the device if you wanted to get several more boards. Board cost could go to $2 if you squeeze enough.

In addition to having it assembled, if your time assembling boards is worth anything. Probably $4 for a simple one.

So that comes up to about $22.53 each to get a PIC 18F1320 up close to the level of a Basic Stamp 2. Not including the shipping of these parts.

Of course if your time is worthless as far as assembly, and you’d rather use a proto board than have an easy to solder PCB, you could probably get it down to $19 each.

Or you could get a Stamp Stack II from Solarbotics or HVWTech for $35, operating the same as a Basic Stamp 2 in an easier to use package. Or an OEM Basic Stamp 2 in kit from Parallax for $31. Or get a Homebrew Basic Stamp 2 from Dr Peter Anderson for $24.95 plus shipping.

Maybe there isn’t such a big difference…

 

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You PAY for them?

You know, I don’t think I’ve ever looked at the price of a PIC? Micochip give you them a dozen at a time, and they even pay the postage! So long as you don’t get more than 12 per month (who needs more than that?) you can have 3 of 4 different types each month.

Anyway, that aside, you’re quite correct: we can always trade off time against money. I know a great shop where you can buy a bipedal walking robot for $800 and you don’t need to do any assembly at all, but that’s not really robotics…!

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The ever changing question

IN answer to you ever changing question, all those variants which are based around PICs will run on PICs. They are all based on PICs, after all!

Wether the bootloader firmware is AVAILABLE for you to flash into the PIC is a different story. I understand there are freely available through programmers supporting several languages.

 

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That is incredably biased

That is incredably biased BTW. I have not checked the price of the 18F1320 since it was 2.07! Digikey buys from the same supplier then adds a dollar to every product they have. Most of your parts are incredably expensive. You can get a 5VDC regulator for a quarter. Caps for 10 cents each. you can get free PCB’s done up to 500dollars worth. ST232 for 1.50. Internal oscilliator.

Also I noticed that you said that it needs a oscilliator to work. You obviously are guessing at what you are trying to get.

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Pot - Kettle - black
Look in the mirror kid, for all the bias you want.

 

 

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Not quite the point, but samples are good

Yes, I agree BOA, samples can be very good to have fun with, to build up. But my main issue was with the comparison of the price of a microcontoller to that of a small development system.

Can’t say I’ve sampled 12 of any type in a month, but do have a few freebie AVRs hanging about. I think I’ve gotten a few h-bridges too, and some other devices.

Each person does have their own definition of what makes thier hobby. I still have a difficulty calling a remote controlled device a robot, though some Battlebots are very sophisticated. All that craftsmanship, just to see it ripped up in an arena! I did know a robot builder that was trying to smelt his own metal, to put in piece molds for his robot projects. I don’t think he ever tried growing silicon crystals though, for making his own ICs or MCUs. Most of my robots are homebuilt, though I do have 2 or 3 kit robots. Oh, and one RC conversion. It is more fun getting something put together as you envision it. Most of these do have microcontroller development boards on, rather than MCU systems I’ve put together.

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Those prices are not
Those prices are not accurate of actual parts either. No way 2 capacitors cost 1 dollar. 7 dollars for a 232?

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**Links to pricing **

I did not hide how I found pricing. I generally provide back-up and details for the statements I post. Since you find it difficult to look this up yourself, check these :

MAX233CPP+G36 from Digikey 7.45 just as stated. This was the first 232 transceiver I came across that did not require external capacitors, to allow for an easier hook-up.

As stated in my post, I figured ABOUT a dollar for 3 caps not 2. For the low drop out reg I posted, a needed 10 uF electrolytic cap at Digikey is a Panasonic ECE-A1CKA100 priced at 14 cents. Additionally, here is a Vishay K104Z15Y5VE5TL2 0.1 uF cap that can be had at 0.066 for a minimum order of 10. Since only 2 would be needed, that comes to a whole 13.2 cents. So yeah, I overestimated by about 73 cents. Congratulations, ya got me in my evil scheme.