Hello!
It's me and my laser tag project again. This time you'll read about me trying to find a solution to simulate the recoil of real weapons to make laser tag more realistic and cool to play.
First part of the page will be, as usual, the brainstorming part. That means that i really do not know what i'm gonna use for the recoil mecahnism (and if i will be using one, if it gets too complicated or costly i'll just abandon this idea) so i ask you for suggestions.
What does it have to do to properly simulate recoil?:
- it has to be a fast mechanism considering i might get up to 15 virtual bullets per second (it might also work once every to bullets, bringing the count down to 7 "loops" per second at most)
- it is preferrable if the mechanism works with electricity and not gas or air
- it has to be a bit powerful, not too much but at least it has to give you the "blowback" feeling
What i have considered so far:
not much actually. I have read that solenoids might do the job, but i don't know whether they are fast enough and where to buy them. I also checked out linear actuators but they seem to be costly and slow. Dual shock-like motors (the ones you find in xbox/ps/wii controllers) are the easiest and cheapest solution, but i'd keep this as a last resort, in case i can't come up with anything else, because they don't give you a "kick", they just make the gun vibrate (not very realistic).
I am concentrating especially on solenoids. They look interesting, but i really do not know where i can get fast and powerful ones. My idea is to attach a weight to the solenoid arm and switch it on and off everytime the user presses the trigger.
Any suggestion/idea?
Solenoids
I bought a couple from electronic goldmine to make a electronic door lock. I believe they will be fast enough, and definetly strong enough for your needs. The only problem I had was they were EXTREMELY noisy (electronically spaeking)
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Oh, thanks for the
Oh, thanks for the information. Unfortunately, electronic goldmine doesn’t ship to Italy, damn! But now that i’ve read your comment i guess i’ll definetly have to try out solenoids.
Glad to hear it. Quick
Glad to hear it. Quick story. On my way to vacation, we stopped at this rest stop thing and there was an arcade. They had one of those games where you have a plastic gun that emmits an IR beam to kill things on a giant screen. What was different about this game was there was recoil! Me, being a geek, tried to speculate how they achieved the effect, and my guess was they used little solenoids. I hope you can get you hands on some.
Another suggestion would be to use a motor with a weight that hits the butt of the gun each time you fire?
Good luck with your project!
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I also tried to search a bit
I also tried to search a bit for those arcade pistols and all i found is this: http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/optical/96045200.htm it does like a big solenoid on the right and a big weight on the left.
About the motor idea: not sure if it would work, it would have to change direction very rapidly, and i’m not sure about how quickly motors can do that.
Looks like solenoids are the
Looks like solenoids are the way to go. I really hope you can find some because I think they’ll work pretty well.
The only thin is the power supply. The solenoids I got run on 12 - 24VDC so unless your laser tag players carry car batteries, you’ll obviously need something more fitting.
About the motor, why will it have to move back and forth. If you have an off balanced weight, it can continually rotate while hittinb a plate or something. But solenoids are obviously the better choice anyway.
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Solenoids & big batteries
I was too worried about the power supply the use. There ARE large battery packs that offer 12V, but placing those inside the weapon would be quite hard, since you already have to host the sounds board and shooting module inside it.
I might either:
-go for 9v solenoids (still, some airsoft weapons can’t house 9.6V batteries)
-find a way to “bury” the battery inside the weapon, where burying means separating the battery pack’s cells and place them one by one in the free spots inside the weapon (this way it would be almost impossible to take it out “on the fly” though).
-mount the battery on the player’s body, but then, instead of using telephone wires to connect the weapon to the sensors (which are on the body) i would need a larger guage for the connection wire (uglier, less slim and less comfortable), since i guess the solenoid will be demanding more current. This also eliminates the possibility to make a wireless link between the weapon and the sensors
BUT maybe i can find some not-too-big comfortable wire that i may like
-mount the battery on the outside of the weapon, the only loser in this case is aestethics
ABOUT THE MOTOR METHOD:
i don’t get it, once it hits the plate, how can it go on and hit it again? Maybe you’re thinking of some kind of plate that gets out of the way once hit and jumps back to its initial position with springs?
Sounds like a plan. Let’s
Sounds like a plan. Let’s hope you can find some low current/voltage solenoids.
The motor idea:
The idea works in the head…I’ll try to render a sketch in MSPaint when I get home.
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I tried to draw what it was
I tried to draw what it was that I was trying to say and if faild.
And yeah, solenoids draw lots and lots of current.
You mean something like
You mean something like this?:
I was thinking along the same line until I read your post =D
Should provide a decent sound/movement provided the parts are well chosen, and I don't think it would be too hard to get the repeat rate above 7 shots per second. If you add a contact or shock sensor to the metal stopping plate then you could have the recoil imitator feed back into the controller, ie: to ensure you get the correct number of recoils for the number of 'bullets' fired.
Yes very similar except for
Yes very similar except for the motor actuator. I was thinking of a disc that starts small but gradually gets much bigger. My sketchup drawing of the disc is really wonky but you should get the idea.
The rotating disc pushes the ram back slowly until the pin comes back to the start of the disc.
That’s a cam
The part Ezekiel has drawn is called a cam. Pretty darn useful things whenever you want to translate a rotating motion to a actuator that varies.
You can probably scrounge some cams from something, or make your own pretty easily by cutting away from a normal wheel or gear.
Oh, now i go it, and i have
Oh, now i go it, and i have to say it’s not bad, because it doesn’t take much space too. I don’t think i am gonna find that disk anywhere though, maybe i could make it out of polymorph? or cut a sheet of plexiglass to form that shape.
I’ll try to see if i can find the various parts for this setup. But still i got a doubt: you guys said that solenoids draw a lot of current, but having a strong and fast motor like one i would have if i used this setup isn’t gonna draw as much?
Define your requirements
I suggest you start by thinking through some requirements:
- How much mass you need to move will depend on the weight of the gun
- The spring needs to be sized for the weight defined above, also the amount of linear travel you need
- How many RPM do you want the cam to turn? (how many "beats" per minute the user will feel)
- The motor and gearing get selected for the right RPM and enough torque to set the spring
I would think a fairly small motor would do, but it depends on how heavy your laser tag gun is.
I bet can cut away from an existing gear or wheel to make the cam.
this could also be a
this could also be a solution, i could place the bottom side of the figure below against the butt plate of the weapon.
I don’t have much idea about
I don’t have much idea about the mass actually , since i don’t know how much kick each weight might give. My mind suggest me some 2 or 3 kilos, i think that would do.
As for the RPM, it would be nice to have a beat per virtual bullet, which is, at most, 15 beats per second.
I think i’ll need to read myself some physics formulas as i have no idea on how to calculate the “power” of the spring i will need.
I like the approach you show
I like the approach you show in your diagram above.
Consider that the force delivered when the spring pulls the blue weight down needs to be enough to be felt by the person holding the gun. The stronger the spring is, the stronger force it will apply. Then you’ll also need a motor and gear that supply enough torque to overcome the pull of the spring.
You also have other practical considerations, like the amount of room you have to fit the device in the butt of the gun. You might start with that as a limitations and build something like what you have above. Then you can experiment with different springs, motors, gearing, etc.
Cool idea. Good luck.
Do you think a wooden
Do you think a wooden structure would be ok? …Because that’s one of the few materials for which i have the tools for cutting it. I don’t think i know where i can find springs though, i’ll need to find myself an internet supplier.
As for the torque needed, is there a way i can know how much torque i need before i buy motors or is it just a matter of experimenting?
Last thing, i don’t think i’ll be using the setup i’ve shown above, because i haven’t got much vertical space. I think i’ll go for the horizontal setup posted before.
Necessity is the mother of
Necessity is the mother of invention, they say. Try it with wood, or stock metal angle parts if you can get them.
There are spings in lots of things, try to scrounge some up. My local hardware store stocks a variety, but you may not be so lucky.
You could look up the equations to calculate the required torque, but basically you need a motor and gear set up that is powerful enough to overcome the pull of the spring and any weight attached to it. Given the limited space you will have to work with, I’m betting you will have not too many choices of motors. So perhaps a good approach would be to get the most powerful geared motor that will fit, and work backwards from there.
Limitations can be a good thing. The remove variables from the design. Then you just have to select and design around them.
I find tamiya prepunched
I find tamiya prepunched flat metal plates great for making up sturdy structures that might be difficult to do if you dont have a machine shop in your other pants. I get them 4 for $1.50. Its not the cheapest way to go but you can make a prototype with it, and once its working change to aluminium window frame stock to make the rest.</p><p>If you went the motor and cam route, you would need a motor that can do 900 rps to get 15 bullets per second. What if you internally modified the firing code so that a minimum "shot" contains 3 bullets? So if you could click the trigger for the minimum time, 3 virtual bullets are fired off and the recoil system is run, then when you go full auto you get 15 rounds per sec, 3 bullets in each shot, 5 pulses per sec for the recoil system. It might be easier and cleaner than 7. Your motor rpm would have to be at least 300 which is more reasonable than 900.</p><p>With the spring.. the longer the travel on your ram the weaker your spring can be but the bigger the cam has to be to get that travel. Im sure a mathematician could come up with the calculations relating ram travel and spring strength with the kickback force gained but I would just experiment.
No springs? Try rubber bands for now.
