Making a spinning wheel electric

Community General Discussions
1

So, I want to turn my spinning wheel into an e-spinner.  THIS is a link to what the wheel looks like.  THIS is a link to the wheel in motion (its sideways, sorry, didn't realize it till it was uploaded and haven't gotten around to re-uploading it).

In that video you can see me turning the wheel by spinning a nut attached to a threaded rod that runs through the center of everything.  What I want to do is replace that threaded rod with a longer one, attach a pulley, attach a motor to the pulley, and have an electric spinning wheel.

I've done some little kids kits robotics before, but nothing major, and even thats been a while.  So I'm a bit frustrated at trying to figure out what parts I need.

I've narrowed down the motor controller to either the Ardunio Uno (because its supposed to be really easy to use) or the or the SyRen 10A regenerative motor controller (because I like the concept of it being able to charge up the hooked up battery while running).  But if someone has a better idea I'm willing to listen.  I've done computer programming before, but never controller programming, but I'm also pretty sure I can learn it.

Motors......this is where I get confused.  Everything I've looked at about building an espinner says I need a DC motor.  Thats fine.  So, THIS, THIS, and THIS are the motors that I've found reference to being used to power espinners.  I've emails out to a couple folks who build them proffessionally to see if they'll tell me what motors they use, but I'm not holding my breath.  I'm really sensitive to high pitched whines, so I'm a little worried about the noise from the motor.  It also needs to be capable of variable speeds.

Batteries: I'd like to wire in a battery, so that it can be run without an outlet nearby if need be.  Suggestions of to types?

And I could use a good link for sources for all of the above, AND all the "fiddly bits" including wires, switches, speed contoll knobs, pulleys, etc......

2

Spinning Wheel

First - Welcome to LMR. Couple of questions and observations:

  1. What starts and stops the operation?
  2. What RPM (speed) do you need?
  3. How accurate do you need the speed to be?
  4. How fast does it need to stop?
  5. Do you need to detect broken thread.

I’m assuming the big wheel like platter in the center is for momentum when using the foot pedal and not part of the motorized version.

As you have referenced 3 motors with greatly varying prices you must realize that not all motors are created equal. The mass of the spinning components will determine the torque (power) required to get the device in motion. The torque of the electric motor proper can be multiplied by a gear reduction (or pulley) mechanism. This also will decrease the speed.

As for batteries. They are rated in Volts and Amp-Hours. The power available is the product. For example. Assume you have a 12V motor that consumes 0.5A while loaded. This would be 6 Watts. If You had a 12V, 2Ah battery (24 Watt Hours) it would ideally last about 4 hours. This is just the short story and I would expect about half in practice.

You can regulate motor speed with a Arduino type CPU board. It will require a dedicated motor driver circuit capable of powering your motor. The CPU itself is capable of providing something in the neighborhood 0f 25ma at 5V (0.025 Amp). Direct connection from motor to CPU is not an option. BTW, various vendors (Dagu, DFRobot) manufacture Arduino compatible boards with onboard motor driver circuits.

This sounds like a great project. Perhaps you can refine and document your requirements and we can help with finding suitable components. I am sure someone around here will be a great source for “Fiddy Bits”.

3

I want the motor to turn off

I want the motor to turn off and on via a switch (a basic toggle is fine).

I want to be able to controll the speed of it, probly via a dimmer knob, thhough a foot pedal is also an option. Ideally I’d like that knob to be able to control it from 0 to max speed.

I need the speed controll to be consistant, so that if I turn the knob to X point to get Y speed this time I can ALWAYS get Y speed at X point.

I’m not sure on RPMs, but I can get you examples of what the proffessionally built machines can do.

I need it to stop pretty darn quick by my standards, but I don’t know how to quantify that, a couple revolutions of the big wheel maybe?

I do not need it to do anything except spin, stop spinning, and spin at the speed I set it to. (There are really fancy models that do all sorts of things, not getting into that)

I want the motor to be connected (via a drive band) to a pulley on the threaded rod that runs through the center of the big wheel (it is called the Flyer Wheel in spinning wheel terms). This will require replacing the current threaded rod with a longer one, thats not a problem. Spinning that pulley will spin the flyer wheel and from there the spinning wheel will run normally.

I know those three motors are very different, thats part of my problem, I don’t know how to narrow down my choices because what I can find for examples are very different.

4

thank you for the battery

thank you for the battery explanation, that helps alot!

5

Spinning wheel
Ok, proffessionally made espinners run at a max RPM between 1000 and 2500rpm depnding on the model. My ideal is probably on the lower end of that.

6

RPM

The 1000 RPM would be at the spooler, not the flywheel. How are they connected? What are their respective diameters?

I’m assuming you currently use the foot pedal. That has to limit the flywheel to about 120 RPM. With a 6:1 belt drive ratio you would want 720 RPM from the motor. Now you need to calculate the torque need to accelerate the wheel from 0 to 120 RPM. What does the flywheel weigh?

This type of assembly is not going to stop quickly. Does the flywheel continue to rotate after you stop pedaling?

7

RPM

Ok, I see what you’re saying.  

I’ll be dissassembling it this week in order to replace the threaded rod, I’ll get the fly wheel’s weight then.

Due to the way this particular wheel is set up it will continue to spin one or two rotations after I stop pedaling but then it stops.  Thats not true of all wheels, some need to be stopped by hand.  I would prefer that this stop in about the same time frame of not more than a couple rotations.

8

Torque

I forgot to mention that you also need to specify a time to get up to speed when calculating torque. You may get a good value by finding out what motors are used in the commercial units. Sometimes there are maintenance manuals with replacement parts or a trip to the retailer.

9

Motors

I can’t really wrap my mind around this, but I’m going to try to fill in a few holes that ggallant hasn’t gotten to yet…

I did also look at the motors. The Faulhaber types are coreless, these are motors designed to be responsive:

http://machinedesign.com/motorsdrives/dc-motor-selection-medical-robotic-automation-and-and-unmanned-aerial-vehicle-uav-app-0

In general these are smaller, “better”, motors. Probably quieter. You certainly pay for that by paying for it as they are expensive. Whether you need that, I do not know.

12V motors will be easier (or at least have more options) to find batteries and power supplies than 24V varieties.

Arduinos are well supported in having a wealth of DC motor speed controllers (and code) designed to work with them.  Something like an L298 H Bridge would be sufficient for  those small motors. You don’t really need the H Bridge because this only needs to go in one direction but there is something to be said for an off the shelf and cheap controller.

The big question then is what speed this needs to work at. A motor with more poles or a gear reduction will work better at low speeds.

Also, these motors will deliver a speed that is dependant on the torque requirement. An unloaded motor will run faster at the same “speed” setting. If you need absolute speed control than you need either a stepper motor or a motor with a  speed encoder. That Arduino with an L298 will handle a stepper.

 

10

torque

Not having alot of luck with the commercial ones.  THe only one to reply so far informed me that was proprietary information.  I’ll ask her that question specifically though and see if she’ll answer.

11

motors

Well, money is an issue, if it wasn’t I’d just drop the $900 on the commercially made model.  But I don’t nessecarily mind spending a bit more on a motor if it’s going to be a better quality unit.  But yes, after doing some digging I was thinking I was better off sticking with 12v, so I’m glad to hear thats probly the right way to go.  

Speed ggallant and I were just discussing (assuming you mean RPM). I’m not sure, but it looks like once I get the weight of the fly wheel torque can be calculated and from there the speed the motor needs to run at?

12

Commercial espinner stats

Here’s the links to whats availible on one of the big brands of commercial espinners:

Product link, manual link (page 13 has the stats they’ve made public)

 

13

torque

When spinning with the pedal I can generally get it up to speed within a couple revolutions of the fly wheel if that helps.

14

Torque

Weight and speed would be used to calculate the torque required to change the speed of the wheel from 0 to xxx RPM. Much like a car has a transmission with gears. Low gears mean more available torque - think acceleration.

The simplest solution might be a 1800 RPM AC motor and a 1:18 belt reduction. You could do some computer speed control using a triac.

 

15

torque

Ok, gears in a car transmission makes sense.  

I don’t nessecarily have a problem with an AC motor, but EVERYONE who’s built an espinner is SURE that it needs a DC motor.  On the other hand if the AC motor would be really cheap I suppose I’d not mind overly if it didn’t work and I had to replace it.  But I don’t really then want to have to redo everything else too.

16

Fly wheel

Ok, the fly wheel weighs 2pounds and 11.55 ounces (1234.622 grams).

And I may have hit a snag.  I’ve contacted the manufactour to see if I should be able to remove that threaded bolt or not.  I was not able too, and though I don’t mind damaging that bolt in the process of removing it (since I’m replacing it), but I don’t want to damage the wheel in the process…there are other options for using the motor to power the wheel, but they’d require me to mount the motor differently.  I’ll have to see.

17

Going forward

That may be good news because getting the wheel up to speed would take considerable amount of energy. I followed a number of links and saw some home brew desk top electric designs. One came with quite a lot of detail as to what went wrong with the first 3 builds. Search for electric spinner on hackaday.

The tabletop designs use 12V motors at approx 0.5A current. Quite common and available in different gear ratios. You can also get them with encoders for speed monitoring and control. Also easy to get 12V, 1.5A power supplies and LiPo batteries at 11.7 or 11.4V.

I noticed that most units include a brake mechanism on the spindle or bobbin. Is that because the outer (don’t know the name) mechanism spins faster than the inner? If so, I think this would be an opportunity for electronics / CPU to really shine by implementing dynamic breaking.

I suspect you could even detect broken thread by monitoring the motor current and detecting a sudden decrease. 

My wife asked if there were places in Maine US where we could see demonstrations of spinning. Prefer the traditional tools.

 

18

Going forward

The brake mechanism used on all wheels (regardless of type) is because the bobbin needs to spin at a different speed from the flyer which spins at the same speed as the flyer wheel (I didn’t come up with the names, sorry).  That is what causes the twist in the yarn.  My wheel has a Scotch Tension.  It has to be adjustable because how much braking is needed depends on the fiber being spun and the type of yarn you want to produce.  

And yup, GlacialWanderer’s set up was one of the first ones I ran across when I started looking at alternatives to buying either a really really cheap espinner or dropping close to a grand on one.

I was thinking, as an alternative, instead of running a drive band from motor to pulley on the flyer, to put the motor’s wheel against the fly wheel, like they were gears.  Not sure I explained that well.  And it would totally change how I wanted to mount the motor…

Well, the manufactuer of my wheel is located in Vermont: http://www.themerlintree.com/the_merlin_tree001.htm .  There are also several spinning guilds in ME: 

http://www.mainespinnersregistry.org/

http://www.nehandspinners.org/resources/guilds/

http://www.interweave.com/spin/resources/spinning_guilds/?country=USA&state=ME

In addition its not unusual for small/privately owned yarn shops to sell spinning wheels, which means that someone there could demo one for you.  Or they may have a “spinning night”, where folks with portable wheels are encouraged to come in and spin as a group.  I will note that my Hitchhiker doesn’t look much like a traditional wheel, but, except for being a direct drive wheel, it functions just like the bigger traditional wheels while being much more portable.  There’s a HUGE variety of spinning wheel types out there, and they range in price from about $300 to well over $1000.  My apologies if I just interested your wife in a new hobby :wink:

I’d prefer to spin traditionally myself.  Unfortunetly previous injuries to my ankles have come back to haunt me and I can no longer treadle (pedal) for more than 15 minutes or so with each foot.  Frustrating doesn’t begin to describe it!

19

going forward

I was seriously considering just building the whole unit like the one Glacial Wanderer did using explaination as the plans.  However it has downsides, and I was hoping to avoid some of them by re-using my own wheel.  For example his setup would require making the flyer and bobbins.  I’d much rather not have to make them, and was originally picturing canniblizing my current wheel to reuse parts to make the espinner when it occured to me that I could put the motor right on the wheel…

20

Going forward
If I,m willing to accept a slower start up would that help? Motor wise?